Pre-Summit – Fleet Structure Proposal Comments

[-PLASMA]

#655

Im not sure I understand the need to keep people up in rank if they arent going to be there, the guild cant stand still for something like that, that gives a poor impression to new members, it doesnt inspire excisting ones eather. When people login im sure they wanna have thier fleet leaders and officers available…at some point. This is just a fact. An issue we have come across before, when new members come into a guild they want to meet the leaders, and should. The reason I added that to my idea was, I know having “the boss” title is prestigeous, but its not there to make members feel better about themselves or a royal right, nor should it be treated like a casual effect, they (serve) the fleet, and to take such an important role, you must be willing to accept the responsibilities that come with it. This is not an attack, its just a fact. We count on, and look up to our leaders, because they set the example.

Also having something too complex to learn, might turn people off from trying. Thats why I made brief statments for officers, and showed what they should be doing, made it simple as possible. Plus it allows things to get done, officer rank will now means something more then “im higher rank, yeay” as you will be expected to participate, but not over do it. I realise its just a game, but lets make sure the people already in IDIC, and those to come have an active fleet to come to.

[-PLASMA]

#1862

Well … lets see …
1. You keep a person in their gained rank out of respect, as they gained that rank as an acknoledgement of their deeds made to the fleet and as a recognition of the level of trust by the others. It does not feel good when you put ALOT of resources in a group (fleet/guild or whatever) and then to find yourself out just because you had RL issues and for a time you were not been able to be around. Also this kind of behaviour will definately not encourage others to put resources into the fleet, if they risk to be cut off from the mere resources they were contributing to. And I am speaking of any kind of resources, either that means time, effort or money. We shoudl always think in perspective and on long term. A solution like yours, Cat, would definately work on short term, but on long term, that means that someone cannot trust the fleet in which they plan to put the resources in, as someday, the same fleet could decide that it doesn’t matter what happened, and that only matters the present. As an extension is the difference between an economy based on property vesus a comunist economy. Also remember another thing: democracy was what killed Socrates. That means that unappropriate used, democracy, as comunism too, can breed monsters.
2. I cannot agree more that the new ones must be in touch with their leaders, and they actually would get in touch with them, as that is why we would have officers which are also leaders of the fleet and with those they should be in touch everyday. RP wise, think how often an ensign from Star Trek Universe gets in touch with the admirals of Starfleet. The idea is to give more importance to the so called “lower officers ranks” and appropriate attributions, so that fleet leaders would not get burned out from “getting in touch” with the new members. That is why we would have so many “admiral-type” positions but also “officer-type” positions, and all those positions should have meaning, not just empty ranks. Also, RP wise, very rare an admiral takes command of an operation, but that is always a posibility (see also ST Universe).
3. Those description you’ve made about specific jobs are most welcomed and not excluded from my proposal. As I said, we can always define specific jobs for all “officer” positions and i gave some examples too.

And last but not least, there is no need for appologise for expressing your thoughts, nothing is personal here, not in your post, nor in mine. We merely try to find our a good way of fleet governance. This is also something taken from the ancient greeks and romans. Forum means in latin the public square, the place where the citizens were allowed to express their opinions (that what the greeks called Agora). This kind of governance worked in ancient times, in Athens. But always remember the downfall, when the majority didn’t liked what one of them said and forced him to drink cucuta (poison) to protect the democracy (see the death of Socrates). Lets don’t do the same and feel offended of what is said here too easily and start clearing out our friend’s lists in game 😉
Cheers,
Kara

[-PLASMA]

#1861

Im glad u brought this up, it gives me the chance to show off how the mechanics of how my system will work. As stated, when someone says they will be away a long time, they will give notice, inturn the officers vote in the replacement so someone is there to fill in that position. when the said player returns, the one who filled the position may step down, and other be reinstated by popular vote (respect) you should know, ur firends here will accomidate you after so long, being apart of us.

This game is day by day, minute by minute. People want to play and clan when they login, But you Iskara, are hardly forgotten, people have worked hard to see to your fleet, to make sure it continued in your absence, including me, and we still do! …and I dont regret it =^.^=

[-PLASMA]

#1860

Smiles … it is not my fleet, first of all 🙂
Second, that is why there are officers who have rights. If you’re speaking about the KDF fleet, then you probably noticed that when I left, officers positions were filled with peoples having the rights to do “day-by-day” and “minute-by-minute” management tasks without my presence. The quatermaster have the rights to even promote to squadron commanders and to manage all fleet business (including the starbase), the squadron commanders have teh rights to promote lower ranks and to organize events as they please to keep teh fleet running and in good shape. And above all, for emergencies or for unforseenable events, there was also the co-leader (Plasma) to take any decissions he would’ve seen fit, if such events would’ve occur. More over, a good management system is not one where teh top manager must be present for things to happen as they suppose to happen.
And then, what is the absence considered an absence? A day? A week? Two weeks? You said something about a month …. why a month? What is a month compared to an year, or 2 years? As I said, try thinking long term. Finding peoples in which you can trust is not an easy task and cannot happen in a month or two. Those who compose the “leadership” of Guild Alliance met and got to known eachothers in years. And IDIC must be set on such premises that would last years. What kind of stability sign would we give if anyone would be removed from its position after a month of absence? What would recognise from the fleet someone returning after, lets say, an year of absence, if none of his old friends wouldn’t be there anymore?
Yes, I agree, your would’ve had right in your call, IF when I had to leave, I would’ve left the fleet unmanaged, with all rights reserved for me only and teh others could not play without me present to do various things that only I, by those rights could’ve done. But is not the case. During my absence, the rights needed for fleet day to day management were given to the right peoples so that day to day activities to not be disturbed.
And those peoples did what they were supposed to do, and the fleet moved thru that time, for which I thank those that made that possible very much. We all should!
As for popular vote, well … is a complicate issue … we can debate it in another thread if you want … all that I want to say here about popular vote is that Socrate died because of popular vote …. Jesus was crucified also because of it. So, please, don’t praise popular vote for so much …

[-PLASMA]

#1858

As for the mechanics of my proposal, well, is based on teh concept that we need to find the mid-level leaders in sufficient number, to keep the fleet running even without constant intervention of the top leaders.
Is the essence of a truly good management system, as I said, to not have to involve teh top management in every decission made in an organisation. And the common mistake usualy made by the young managers that wants to keep all in control, without delegating ….

[-PLASMA]

#1859

More comments on this from other members would be great. I am leaning towards a more simplified rank structure myself.

I have to agree in theory with cat that having people in ceremonial authority positions is respectful, but not practical in being a governing force in the guild. Having said that it was me that implemented those positions and I take responsibility for that.

I’m at work at the mo, will have more to say later 🙂

[-PLASMA]

#1856

I never said ceremonial, and definately never meant to have someone that will only stay on top and do nothing. What I said was that we must treat each case diferentiately, when it comes about peoples that contributed to the fleet growth. And discharging those peoples for 1-2-3 months of absence, without questions, only by rule base is rude and unnecessary, to say the least.
I also said that we have to think of a structure to cope with all needs … that means a lower council with many members and with the necessary rights to run the fleet on daily bases and a higher council with the task of keeping the fleet alive and resurrect it, if necessary, over time. The mean to acceding to that higher council being the long time (demonstrated) commitment to the fleet AND to Guild Alliance activities and values.
Otherwise, we will only have a fleet, that will only run for a time, while STO will still run and then disperse with the eventual STO disperse.
Also, in this “conscripted” like case, we risk that over time we won’t recognise the fleet that it was years ago … as peoples changes, so will the ideals and the ways of doing things in the fleet. Because in this case, in time (and this time not so long time) peoples will change ….
As for my involvement in KDF, for instance … well … as I said, I stepped down from that, and I’ll wait for the Guild Alliance comitee to nominate someone else to take my place. I am totaly against any form of public vote in that matter, as in my opinion this will lead to abuses, in time.
Best wishes,
Kara

[-PLASMA]

#1857

These are very interesting points and all the ideas mentioned need to be acknowledged and considered. I would like to expand on some of the thoughts that have been posted so far. Firstly regarding people whom are non active etc, this has been a weak area in our fleet for quite some time and fair guidelines need to be established in order for the fleet to move forward. I understand real life comes up of course and that has to take priority. I think during these months not all officers were aware that people were absent due to personal reasons etc, only the leaders knew which is ok, but the others were not sure what was going on, if they were returning to us or whatever. We missed them and I was concerned that they may have left us for good… In a way it was confusing and placed a lot of challenges on the other commanding staff who were trying to build up the fleet.

Some of the absentees did not give any notice and we still do not know if they are returning as they have been absent for more than 6 months. I don’t believe in kicking people out of fleets with out prior notice and for them to be informed of what may happen. I do believe that if someone is in a officer rank and will be away for months and months, it is important that the higher officers i.e. Command officers and above are aware and informed. In doing this, it will help the others to step up and even allocate duties to others who may be willing to assist us. We are not going to step on each others position when they are absent and have that person come back and their rank is gone completely that would be wrong and controlling. At the same time we all need to communicate and if possible give prior notice somehow, even if the guild alliance is informed and a message can be passed onto other members.

Secondly I have noticed through-out the months and especially when season 6 arrived, this placed a huge strain on individual members with building the star base and also trying to work on individual toons. As Ambassador, I was able to chat to many of our regular members and they had felt burnt out and had simply lost interest in gaming and the fleet. I believe it is important to have a simple command and rank structure that allows for people to work together in teams, everyone who is interested should have responsibilities together with a leader of that section being responsible of that group and its dynamics to build the fleet up. This is the case in real life and in business, members of a team within an organization bring their individual experience and accomplishments to the team. The accumulated total of both personal and professional experiences of the group adds far more value to the work of the team than any one individual’s background could. This benefit actually adds depth to ideas generated by the group and helps create a more efficient work flow and in our case in our Fleet.

Thirdly, in order to work together within this fleet we need to support one another, whether it be in fleet events, projects or helping the new members level. This doesn’t have to be mandatory and if people are not up to doing this all the time that is fine- as I said real life comes first etc and we need to respect peoples privacy and let them do what they must. At the same time In the past I have noticed officers have placed a lot of time in creating events and grinding for gear and even spending real $ for prizes. It is sad to hear that not many people have supported these events and when it comes to the day, only one or nearly no one turns up to support them. The saddest thing is there were officers and members who were online at the time, but they simply were busy attending to other things or did not want to be apart of it. This is hard and it makes people want to give up on creating any events for our fleet. I believe this is not a good message as we are not supporting our fellow team players, whether we like the event or not – that is not important as in the scheme of things when we are not attending it places a bad vibe on the other lower ranking members, they do look up to the higher officers and leaders etc and can sense when things are off. The least we could do is advertise each others events, send messages and forum posts encouraging people to attend, already this acknowledges the efforts of the people who have created the event and places a positive outlook on what we are about. At the same time we can not make people do things and that is not what it is about, my idea is to continue to think about the long term of this fleet and to think about supporting one another which in terms promotes an effective and stable fleet.

Finally, I believe in IDIC and the people we have here, we really have a fine group of folks and I am proud to be apart of it. These are important times as we can choose to build this fleet up or have it stay the way it is. This is not just one person at fault and no one is to be blamed, at the same time we take responsibility together as together we can accomplish so much more than by ourselves.

“All for one and one for All”…

Thanks for your time in reading this post!

[-PLASMA]

#1863

Maybe this is out of topic, but I just received it today by email and I think is a good lecture regarding the subject: http://www.inc.com/brent-gleeson/what-great-leaders-have-that-good-leaders-don%2527t.html

[-PLASMA]

#1864

I read where you said you stepped down as leader, thats unfortunate. its still good your taking the initiative to learn should you wish to lead again.

[-PLASMA]

#1865

Was that the question? It is the 3rd or 4th time when I say that.
I even changed my forum signature more then a week ago ….
My argumentations during last days does not refers to my case, but refers to a principle.
For short this argumentation revolves around the questions: Do we want to have a “conscript” like fleet or a close group that would be able to manage several guilds/fleets, backing up one for the others for the enjoyment of everyone? Do we want within those fleets/guilds a competitive environment or a laid back environment that would feel like an online home for the members?
Personally, I prefer to not militarize the fleet with tight rules but to create an environment where, at some point everyone that wants to lead something to be able to do it. And also I would prefer to not have such a competitive environment, but a laid back one. Those were the reasons I left the first fleet I was before IDIC and the reasons I’ve joined IDIC. It would be a pity to loose that, because without those, for me, there is no IDIC.
Think back of what I.D.I.C. actually means, think of that vulcan philosophy on which is based. Maybe is not a working philosophy for a very well running fleet, but is the philosophy I adhered to when I joined and also what I tried, in the past weeks, to defend.
This is my last post on this subject. If anyone would want to hear my opinions about this subject will have to directly ask me and I’ll reply in private.
Cheers,

[-PLASMA]

#1866

I think there are things being taken out of context and its obvious that there is an air of sarcasm in the previous posts. I had conversations this evening with Londi, Kara, Cat and Ingrid and its obvious that everyone has a different perspective. I believe I’ve gotten to the the root of several issues and have made some progress leading up to the Summit. I also believe that we now ALL better understand events that led up to certain fleet happenings, ive tried my best to explain circumstances and events to people.

Things can snowball really quick. Don’t let it get out of control. If I started getting sarcastic with you all you would get offended, so why are you doing it to each-other? I can see valid points in all the arguments, don’t think I have any type of favoritism towards anyone.

There’s no reason to delete people from friends lists. Because someone disagrees with you it doesn’t mean they’re not your friends, also once it comes to that, how do you go back?

1. You wont be able to work together
2. If you resign and go to a lower rank you will not want to take direction etc.
3. You give me a headache like I have right now, lol.

This is a game, we’re trying to make the best plan for keeping the guild together benefiting all – when posting from now on I want that to be in your mind, any sarcasm from now on that I deem inflammatory and I will have to sensor your comments.

I asked for these conversations to be public, but it doesn’t set a good example for new members. I still believe that they should be publicly discussed, at lest until the Summit, lets keep it constructive and on-topic from now on.

[-PLASMA]

#1867

I leave for a few days, and you kids are back at it again!

This isnt good, it saddens me to see everyone with such hard feelings for one another. Look, I can see this boils down to a lack of trust between two members, this has affected those around them. Respect is a two way street, ideas come and go, positions tend to change hands over time; but when dealing with people you cant treat it as the same thing, or you loose the human aspect and it results in anger and a lack of trust. as you can see. Dont let your motivations over rule your heart, we are all members from the same guild, what you have offered to your guild or even your position shouldnt gain you respect, it should be enough that you are a member that grants that! I think the main goal for this summit should be to reunite ourselves before we start on the fleet.

This fleet is its people, not its leaders, we make the fleet what it is everytime we login to play. I admit, I am a bit of a casual player, and It means I miss getting to be part of many things, the time zone issue doesnt help eather. As I may not be at the summit due to the time, I would like to add this concerning the fleet structure, and my opinion of the 2 submissions. Thank you both for taking the time to create these.
I can see catstars view in the need to keep an active fleet, the lack of participation can slowly kill off a fleet, as we see happening. I can also see why he wants positions to be opened for change, to get fresh people with fresh ideas, like a relief pitcher. I respect his dedication to preserving our fleets future, his main concern is always for us and our success. I can respect that as its the actions of a team leader.
Iskaras point of view I can relate to in some respects as well. As I like to come and go as I please, sometimes things can get repetative and boring, mostly because I end up playing alone. I understand her need to switch up, I play several games too. Her idea reminds me of dungeons and dragons, and I have to say, the title Guildmaster is cool, I wouldnt mind being called that 🙂 This is more of a nobility system, like in the middle ages, where you had the Monarchy who possesed the thrown and king Arthurs knights of the round table. Followed by land owners and a governing body. I can see this working too, it allows for the heads of the guild to be casual and play other games when they tire of the one.

In all, I like both ideas but catstars leaves little room for casual gamers who want to be incharge but not always play. His ranks are designed for a more active fleet. Plus it gives the impression that they are expected to grind. Thats whats been turning people away lately. They may fear being burn out.
While at the same time Iskaras seems to leave a lack of interaction with the lower ranks by the leaders or a way to be promoted should new members wish to be promoted to higher ranks. No one wants to remain a peasant for ever, that could also loose us participation, feeling unworthy to be acknowledged by a guilds leaders. Im not sure it would fit our fleets current needs, plus there are too many ranks to fit what is available in STO’s ranking system.

At some point, should more people join, I would like to hold a leader position too add my talents to the fleet. maybe not permantly, as I like to have variety when gaming to keep things fresh. So I think after weighing in all aspects of both submissions, I would have to favor cats, as it will leave the leadership open enough that I can have a chance at it, plus I have no problems interacting with lower ranking members, I enjoy meeting and interacting with everyone. While we are growing, we need to have a more stable and available leader board. Should i be given the oportunity to lead, I would make the time to see that I also got to know all our members, I dont want to miss anything going on hehe. Let it not be said, that there was a party and Luna wasent there 🙂

hugs and kisses everyone.

***(I need to add something)***

I only like good surprizes, so please let me know of any major changes before they happen. I would like to remind all attending and deciding the future of the fleet, that there are players like me who appreciate your ideas, but dont forget you are deciding all of our futures here, keep in mind to focus on the needs of people who are going to be playing, us underlings! (Just finished watching Braveheart, and became concerned after the scene with the Nobles arguing for power) Thats why I added this. That and it maybe the wine HAHAHAHA! 😆

[-PLASMA]

#1868

Finally someone that i think that understood the concept. Yes, it is inspired from King’s Arthur Round Table. And yes, the idea is to allow casual and rarely playing peoples to take charge and have ranks, recognition and responsabilities inthe fleet.
As for the promotions to the “round table” level, those would happen too, of course, after we would see long time commitment to the fleet. That means that a player that plays for weekends only, 4-5 hours per week, could, after, lets say 1-2 months of continuous play during weekends, take charge of weekends fleet events as rear admiral and then, after, lets say 6-7 such succesfull events to ascend to a vice-admiral position, to oversee weekend events on behalf of an admiral and if all goes well and it makes no abuse to become an admiral in few months with full rights and recognitions in ALL Guild Alliance games/guilds he wants to play in a coresponding rank and responsabilities.
That would be the structure mechanics I was proposing.
For more involved players this could happen even quicker, always base on the relation of trust those players made with the other members of the “Admiralty” (or round table if you like) and on their proven commitment to the values of the fleet.
Of course, the numbers here are examples, as there would be up to the Admiralty to grant those positions sooner or later, depending on that player performance and involvement. Also, in ascending to the Admirality, a reguar presence on forum would be also a requirement, i guess.
Thank you, Luna for the parallel you’ve made with the King’s Arthur’s round table, it was the base in my mind, but I totally forgot about it as developing the concept 🙂
One last statement that I maybe forgot to make: this structure I was proposing is very different from that we have now and is the one I was thinking to use for the Infinite Jedi Order in SW:TOR. It is also the same model I’ve used in my old vampire clan I’ve had in Second Life, which worked out pretty well with over 200 members for almost 3 years.

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